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	<title>Comments for Philosophy for Real Life</title>
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	<description>A blog by Bill Meacham</description>
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		<title>Comment on Ways to Say &#8220;Should&#8221; by Imagine There&#8217;s No Morality &#124; Philosophy for Real Life</title>
		<link>http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=622&#038;cpage=1#comment-2396</link>
		<dc:creator>Imagine There&#8217;s No Morality &#124; Philosophy for Real Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 May 2013 01:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=622#comment-2396</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] of us? (This is the view called &#8220;moral anti-realism.&#8221;) What if morality is only constructed socially; and, being socially constructed, can be socially deconstructed if we [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of us? (This is the view called &#8220;moral anti-realism.&#8221;) What if morality is only constructed socially; and, being socially constructed, can be socially deconstructed if we [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Deriving &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; by larry</title>
		<link>http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966&#038;cpage=1#comment-2394</link>
		<dc:creator>larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 May 2013 13:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966#comment-2394</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In formal logic, a valid deductive form plus true premises yields a true conclusion.  Ethical inference isn&#039;t a valid deductive form in this sense, and the trouble springs from its form, which is closer to affirming the consequent than to modes ponens.  Certainly, people do reason in this deductively invalid way all the time - and formal logic can be an aid in cataloging the possible failure modes that  result.

Formal logic can also be used as a basic framework that can then be enriched with signs that denote &quot;X is permitted&quot; and &quot;X is obligitory&quot;.  All such deontic logics need &quot;ought&quot; in the premise to get to &quot;ought&quot; in the conclusion.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-deontic/

The unspoken deontic premise in Ethical Inference is something like

  Agents ought to take actions that will lead to desired outcomes.  

My objections to this premise are many.  Here&#039;s just three:

  Perhaps no action is required. 
  Perhaps there&#039;s an easier way to achieve the same goal
  Perhaps what the agent (e.g. Hitler) wants is bad and wrong]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In formal logic, a valid deductive form plus true premises yields a true conclusion.  Ethical inference isn&#8217;t a valid deductive form in this sense, and the trouble springs from its form, which is closer to affirming the consequent than to modes ponens.  Certainly, people do reason in this deductively invalid way all the time &#8211; and formal logic can be an aid in cataloging the possible failure modes that  result.</p>
<p>Formal logic can also be used as a basic framework that can then be enriched with signs that denote &#8220;X is permitted&#8221; and &#8220;X is obligitory&#8221;.  All such deontic logics need &#8220;ought&#8221; in the premise to get to &#8220;ought&#8221; in the conclusion.</p>
<p><a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-deontic/" rel="nofollow">http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-deontic/</a></p>
<p>The unspoken deontic premise in Ethical Inference is something like</p>
<p>  Agents ought to take actions that will lead to desired outcomes.  </p>
<p>My objections to this premise are many.  Here&#8217;s just three:</p>
<p>  Perhaps no action is required.<br />
  Perhaps there&#8217;s an easier way to achieve the same goal<br />
  Perhaps what the agent (e.g. Hitler) wants is bad and wrong</p>
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		<title>Comment on Deriving &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; by Bill Meacham</title>
		<link>http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966&#038;cpage=1#comment-2378</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Meacham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 May 2013 21:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966#comment-2378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just as you have to evaluate the truth of the premises in logical inference order to assess the truth of the conclusion, you have to evaluate the suitability or appropriateness of the premises of an ethical inference in order to assess the force of its recommendatory conclusion.  In your first example of inference, the second premise is silly.  Lassie is already mortal.

[Your example reminds me of the Wim Wenders movie &lt;em&gt;Wings of Desire&lt;/em&gt;, in which a disembodied and immortal angel wants to become human in order to experience things that it cannot in its angelic state.  For such an angel (if its name were &quot;Lassie&quot;) your example would indeed have recommendatory force.]

In your second example of inference, using a sledgehammer to kill a fly, the first premise, while true, is not very workable, as you note.  The strength of the recommendation is weak because of the weakness of the first premise.

Just as a logical argument can be valid in form but lead to a false conclusion if one or more premises are false, an ethical argument can be valid in form but lead to a foolish conclusion if one or more of its premises are unsuitable or inappropriate.

You say

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;Ethical Inference looks ... weak to me, since it ignores the fact that there can be many means to a given end.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The ethical inference does not have the force of formal logic.  It does not provide deductive certainty.  But it does have practical import and is a useful way of reasoning, particularly if you evaluate thoughtfully the premises.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just as you have to evaluate the truth of the premises in logical inference order to assess the truth of the conclusion, you have to evaluate the suitability or appropriateness of the premises of an ethical inference in order to assess the force of its recommendatory conclusion.  In your first example of inference, the second premise is silly.  Lassie is already mortal.</p>
<p>[Your example reminds me of the Wim Wenders movie <em>Wings of Desire</em>, in which a disembodied and immortal angel wants to become human in order to experience things that it cannot in its angelic state.  For such an angel (if its name were "Lassie") your example would indeed have recommendatory force.]</p>
<p>In your second example of inference, using a sledgehammer to kill a fly, the first premise, while true, is not very workable, as you note.  The strength of the recommendation is weak because of the weakness of the first premise.</p>
<p>Just as a logical argument can be valid in form but lead to a false conclusion if one or more premises are false, an ethical argument can be valid in form but lead to a foolish conclusion if one or more of its premises are unsuitable or inappropriate.</p>
<p>You say</p>
<blockquote><p><em>Ethical Inference looks &#8230; weak to me, since it ignores the fact that there can be many means to a given end.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>The ethical inference does not have the force of formal logic.  It does not provide deductive certainty.  But it does have practical import and is a useful way of reasoning, particularly if you evaluate thoughtfully the premises.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Deriving &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; by larry</title>
		<link>http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966&#038;cpage=1#comment-2373</link>
		<dc:creator>larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 May 2013 22:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966#comment-2373</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If I tinker with your &quot;Lassie&quot; example of affirming the consequent, making the change from assertions about facts to assertions about wants and ought, I get the following

1) If a being is a human, then that being is mortal
2) Lassie wants to mortal (let&#039;s just suppose)
3) Therefore, Lassie ought to be human (huh?  why would this follow?)

This is quite silly.  Lassie is under no obligation to be human, regardless of what Lassie wants in terms of mortality.  Lassie has already achieved the supposedly desired state of mortality in a different way - by being a dog.

This points to a systematic problem in the form of argument you&#039;ve labeled Ethical Inference.  Let&#039;s try another example of the same form.

1) If I hit a fly with a sledgehammer, it will die
2) I want to kill this fly
3) Therefore, I ought to hit it with a sledgehammer

Well ... there are easier ways to achieve the same goal.  Ethical Inference looks very, very weak to me, since it ignores the fact that there can be many means to a given end.

I can see where the accusation of affirming the consequent comes from.  Affirming the consequent tries to go backwards, from the consequent of an if - then to the antecedent, ignoring the fact that there can be many reasons why a given consequent is true.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I tinker with your &#8220;Lassie&#8221; example of affirming the consequent, making the change from assertions about facts to assertions about wants and ought, I get the following</p>
<p>1) If a being is a human, then that being is mortal<br />
2) Lassie wants to mortal (let&#8217;s just suppose)<br />
3) Therefore, Lassie ought to be human (huh?  why would this follow?)</p>
<p>This is quite silly.  Lassie is under no obligation to be human, regardless of what Lassie wants in terms of mortality.  Lassie has already achieved the supposedly desired state of mortality in a different way &#8211; by being a dog.</p>
<p>This points to a systematic problem in the form of argument you&#8217;ve labeled Ethical Inference.  Let&#8217;s try another example of the same form.</p>
<p>1) If I hit a fly with a sledgehammer, it will die<br />
2) I want to kill this fly<br />
3) Therefore, I ought to hit it with a sledgehammer</p>
<p>Well &#8230; there are easier ways to achieve the same goal.  Ethical Inference looks very, very weak to me, since it ignores the fact that there can be many means to a given end.</p>
<p>I can see where the accusation of affirming the consequent comes from.  Affirming the consequent tries to go backwards, from the consequent of an if &#8211; then to the antecedent, ignoring the fact that there can be many reasons why a given consequent is true.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How to Derive &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; by Bill Meacham</title>
		<link>http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=82&#038;cpage=1#comment-2372</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Meacham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 May 2013 20:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=82#comment-2372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your first example syllogism is invalid because it is denying the antecedent.  Your second is a valid example of Modus Tollens.  I think you got them mixed up in your reply to my reply.

Syllogisms are neither true nor false.  Truth and falsity apply to the premises and conclusion, not to the syllogism as a whole.  The syllogism as a whole is either valid or invalid.  So the question &quot;Would this syllogism be true?&quot; is not meaningful.

My ethical inference is not Modus Ponens.  It is based on Modus Ponens, but it is not the same.  Please see my newer post on the subject here: 
http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966

In any case, no matter how much of slob or homely Mary is, she will have a better chance of getting along with others if she is honest and friendly than if she is a liar and hostile.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your first example syllogism is invalid because it is denying the antecedent.  Your second is a valid example of Modus Tollens.  I think you got them mixed up in your reply to my reply.</p>
<p>Syllogisms are neither true nor false.  Truth and falsity apply to the premises and conclusion, not to the syllogism as a whole.  The syllogism as a whole is either valid or invalid.  So the question &#8220;Would this syllogism be true?&#8221; is not meaningful.</p>
<p>My ethical inference is not Modus Ponens.  It is based on Modus Ponens, but it is not the same.  Please see my newer post on the subject here:<br />
<a href="http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966" rel="nofollow">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966</a></p>
<p>In any case, no matter how much of slob or homely Mary is, she will have a better chance of getting along with others if she is honest and friendly than if she is a liar and hostile.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How to Derive &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; by Larry Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=82&#038;cpage=1#comment-2371</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 May 2013 19:13:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=82#comment-2371</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bill, 

Thanks for the reply. I am aware the Modus Tollens reveals the conclusion as false. That was actually the point I was trying to make.

The example you use was Modus Ponens. 
You used this as an example:
 If [P] you want to get along with people, then [Q] you ought to be honest and friendly.
 
We can spell this out logically as follows:
 
Premise: People who are honest and friendly get along with other people.
Premise: You want to get along with other people.
Conclusion: You ought to be honest and friendly.

What I was trying to show was that through Modus Tollens, the example doesn&#039;t hold up as you point out.

&gt; Would this syllogism be true?:
 Premise: People who are honest and friendly get along with other people
 Premise: Mary doesn’t get along with others
 Conclusion: Mary is not honest or friendly with others.

&quot;No. That is a fallacy called Denying the Antecedent. Maybe Mary gets along with others even though she is not honest and friendly. Maybe she is rich, and people hang out with her even though they don’t like her personality.&quot;

I agree with you that when we apply modus tollens the syllogism reveals a fallacy. Mary may be the victim of prejudice. Maybe she&#039;s obese or homely or aside from being honest and friendly, she&#039;s a bit of a slob. Being honest and friendly doesn&#039;t guarantee that she gets along with others. So I guess my question is, how does the use of modus polens show that ought is derived from is when modus tollens shows that as a fallacy?

I think the point is that in any deductive syllogism, IF the premises are true, THEN the conclusion MUST follow. In my example the conclusion doesn&#039;t follow because one or more of the premises hasn&#039;t been demonstrated as true.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, </p>
<p>Thanks for the reply. I am aware the Modus Tollens reveals the conclusion as false. That was actually the point I was trying to make.</p>
<p>The example you use was Modus Ponens.<br />
You used this as an example:<br />
 If [P] you want to get along with people, then [Q] you ought to be honest and friendly.</p>
<p>We can spell this out logically as follows:</p>
<p>Premise: People who are honest and friendly get along with other people.<br />
Premise: You want to get along with other people.<br />
Conclusion: You ought to be honest and friendly.</p>
<p>What I was trying to show was that through Modus Tollens, the example doesn&#8217;t hold up as you point out.</p>
<p>&gt; Would this syllogism be true?:<br />
 Premise: People who are honest and friendly get along with other people<br />
 Premise: Mary doesn’t get along with others<br />
 Conclusion: Mary is not honest or friendly with others.</p>
<p>&#8220;No. That is a fallacy called Denying the Antecedent. Maybe Mary gets along with others even though she is not honest and friendly. Maybe she is rich, and people hang out with her even though they don’t like her personality.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with you that when we apply modus tollens the syllogism reveals a fallacy. Mary may be the victim of prejudice. Maybe she&#8217;s obese or homely or aside from being honest and friendly, she&#8217;s a bit of a slob. Being honest and friendly doesn&#8217;t guarantee that she gets along with others. So I guess my question is, how does the use of modus polens show that ought is derived from is when modus tollens shows that as a fallacy?</p>
<p>I think the point is that in any deductive syllogism, IF the premises are true, THEN the conclusion MUST follow. In my example the conclusion doesn&#8217;t follow because one or more of the premises hasn&#8217;t been demonstrated as true.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Deriving &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; by Carl Davidson</title>
		<link>http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966&#038;cpage=1#comment-2370</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 May 2013 18:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966#comment-2370</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I try to get rid of the &#039;oughts&#039; and shoulds&#039; 

&#039;If you want to get along with people, it is helpful to be honest and friendly&#039; is more rational, ie, you could take a survey and find out.

Check out Albert Ellis on the matter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I try to get rid of the &#8216;oughts&#8217; and shoulds&#8217; </p>
<p>&#8216;If you want to get along with people, it is helpful to be honest and friendly&#8217; is more rational, ie, you could take a survey and find out.</p>
<p>Check out Albert Ellis on the matter.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How to Derive &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; by Bill Meacham</title>
		<link>http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=82&#038;cpage=1#comment-2369</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Meacham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 May 2013 18:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=82#comment-2369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Larry Brown asks
&gt; Would Modus Tollens be this?:
&gt; Premise: People who are honest and friendly get along with other people
&gt; Premise: Mary is not honest and friendly with others
&gt; Conclusion: Mary doesn’t get along with others

No.  That is a fallacy called Denying the Antecedent.  Maybe Mary gets along with others even though she is not honest and friendly.  Maybe she is rich, and people hang out with her even though they don&#039;t like her personality.

&gt; Would this syllogism be true?:
&gt; Premise: People who are honest and friendly get along with other people
&gt; Premise: Mary doesn’t get along with others
&gt; Conclusion: Mary is not honest or friendly with others.

That is a valid argument. In fact, it is Modus Tollens.  It is valid because it is not possible for the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false.

&gt; we don’t have firm refutation of Kant&#039;s Moral Law.

Right.  I am not attempting to refute Kant in this essay.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry Brown asks<br />
> Would Modus Tollens be this?:<br />
> Premise: People who are honest and friendly get along with other people<br />
> Premise: Mary is not honest and friendly with others<br />
> Conclusion: Mary doesn’t get along with others</p>
<p>No.  That is a fallacy called Denying the Antecedent.  Maybe Mary gets along with others even though she is not honest and friendly.  Maybe she is rich, and people hang out with her even though they don&#8217;t like her personality.</p>
<p>> Would this syllogism be true?:<br />
> Premise: People who are honest and friendly get along with other people<br />
> Premise: Mary doesn’t get along with others<br />
> Conclusion: Mary is not honest or friendly with others.</p>
<p>That is a valid argument. In fact, it is Modus Tollens.  It is valid because it is not possible for the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false.</p>
<p>> we don’t have firm refutation of Kant&#8217;s Moral Law.</p>
<p>Right.  I am not attempting to refute Kant in this essay.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Deriving &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; by jim</title>
		<link>http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966&#038;cpage=1#comment-2368</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 May 2013 16:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=966#comment-2368</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Liked the video. Interesting topic. In defense of Rand&#039;s vague &#039;theory&#039; that morality can be derived from science. I found the lecture interesting in that it seemed to organize moral language in a concise and useful way into two camps, that of science and that of religion. BUT I don&#039;t see a substantive way in which the information in the lecture transcends a simple claim that science is based on fact and religion is based on opinion and, specifically, cultural history. I know that seems tangential, but consider the idea that it is simply a reconstruction of Pierce&#039;s &quot;Ways of Knowing,&quot; comparing his rational/scientific knowledge with a mixture of the relativistic ways of knowing. It seems simply to say that you cannot base claims on what you hear or know independent of science, or more specifically reality. This is not much of a new claim in the sense that it is what the relativists have endeavored to attack, in their minds, as easily as the objective arguments, perhaps Aristotle, prior to the culture of Science. So, in that sense, I found it organizing in a language sense, and not fruit-full in a knowledge sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liked the video. Interesting topic. In defense of Rand&#8217;s vague &#8216;theory&#8217; that morality can be derived from science. I found the lecture interesting in that it seemed to organize moral language in a concise and useful way into two camps, that of science and that of religion. BUT I don&#8217;t see a substantive way in which the information in the lecture transcends a simple claim that science is based on fact and religion is based on opinion and, specifically, cultural history. I know that seems tangential, but consider the idea that it is simply a reconstruction of Pierce&#8217;s &#8220;Ways of Knowing,&#8221; comparing his rational/scientific knowledge with a mixture of the relativistic ways of knowing. It seems simply to say that you cannot base claims on what you hear or know independent of science, or more specifically reality. This is not much of a new claim in the sense that it is what the relativists have endeavored to attack, in their minds, as easily as the objective arguments, perhaps Aristotle, prior to the culture of Science. So, in that sense, I found it organizing in a language sense, and not fruit-full in a knowledge sense.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How to Derive &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; by Deriving &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; &#124; Philosophy for Real Life</title>
		<link>http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=82&#038;cpage=1#comment-2367</link>
		<dc:creator>Deriving &#8220;Ought&#8221; from &#8220;Is&#8221; &#124; Philosophy for Real Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 May 2013 15:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bmeacham.com/blog/?p=82#comment-2367</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] (saying that something is or is not the case). I disagree. I have written about the topic before, and recently gave a talk to the Philosophy Club about it. I have posted a video on YouTube, and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (saying that something is or is not the case). I disagree. I have written about the topic before, and recently gave a talk to the Philosophy Club about it. I have posted a video on YouTube, and [...]</p>
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